jesse_the_k | What problem are autonomous vehicles solving?

Labor costs.

Venture capital is chasing the dream of labor-less profit.

Outsourcing and off-shoring has shaved labor costs down but it's not vanishingly thin enough.

Meanwhile, customers cannot spend if they don't have money, which hitherto has been predicated on a mixture of wages/salary and some kinds of direct payments.

How clogged up with plowing have your curb cuts and sidewalks been?

...perhaps the fact that taxi drivers are often immigrants?

snow clog?

I haven't traveled out on my own since the snow fell. All my reasons to leave the house have been closed since March. The very-nearby bike path gets priority plowing, which is nice for emergency exits. On Thursday I plan to go walking in the cemetery with a pal, and I'll see what the roadways are like.

I fear that's only a synergy--that many taxi drivers are immigrants doesn't hinder the desire. Shedding jobs without credentialing hurdles was part of Cold War policy; factory jobs were the off-shoring component though presented as only the unskilled segment-- how that worked out has become history and sociology.

Yeah, much of the Outer World is closed here too. But library curbside and getting groceries are still things. At some distance of time the sidewalks haven't been superbad. That's not actually ADA compliant though, not in meaningful ways if letter of the law.

AV navigation depends on a deep understanding of the typical streetscape.

The other thing needed for an understanding of accessibility issues is an understanding of how disabled people use that streetscape. You can see it in that story you linked, where the AV Pizza Robot people backed away from their apology because the wheelchair got around the robot, not appreciating that she had to use the diagonally-sloped side of the kerb-cut to do it, and that that's dangerous. I've had to take the local high street managers through that very point because they just didn't appreciate there was a safety issue in blocking the actual ramp.

I'm deeply worried that there'll be an issue with wheelchair users not being recognised as people by AVs unless they're specifically taught to recognise us. I've seen footage of an AI scanning a crowd and outlining all of the people, and repeatedly failing where it hit parents with buggies. I can't recall if there were any wheelchair users in shot, but clearly if it didn't recognise buggies it was going to have an issue with wheelchairs.

What problem are AVs solving?

AFAICS, the need to pay taxi-drivers!

The other AV issue I see coming is urban air mobility, aka automated aerial taxis, I've looked at pretty much all the major projects and there's not one I could get my chair aboard. The only one that even seems to have considered the issue is Embraer, and they clearly assumed everyone uses a folding manual because they have a narrow slot behind a seat, and that was about four feet off the ground (let's just say a side transfer would be particularly ambitious!). Boeing's first prototype I couldn't even have gotten within two metres of the fuselage, never mind aboard, though they do seem to have abandoned that layout (it had multiple rotors mounted on outriggers at about knee level/toddler head level - did no one even think about passenger safety?). Aircraft have to accommodate us, taxis have to accomodate us, if the fusion of the two can't accommodate us, then something has gone badly wrong.

But for Covid, one of my plans for the year was to go to Farnborough Airshow and hit up every urban air mobility company there with a mockup and ask them how I was supposed to get aboard?

You've identified exactly that weak link: curb ramps. Even thought the first iteration of ADA went into effect 27 years ago, no federal standard curb cut designs exist. Most municipalities have their own, idiosyncratic drawings for curb ramps.

As I've learned the hard way, ADA specifications are a floor, not a ceiling, and nowhere is this more true than the precipitous side-slopes on curb ramps. These Pizza Robot people think "well, there's extra room" without knowing a thing about it. The lack of a Federal spec means that this fight has to happen city by city, which was why there was a Federal law in the first place. Flames from the side of my face!

Automated aerial taxis

Words fail me at this point: ‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️‼️

, no federal standard curb cut designs exist.

*Headddesk* We don't just have a national standard, it's in at least two different documents, the Building Regs and a document that only talks about accessible crossings and also governs where tactile pavement should go in relation to them.

And everyone completely ignored them for emergency Covid pavement widening, which gave us such gems as a 45 degree tarmac ramp off the normal pavement ending a foot short of a barrier.

Oh god pavement widening!

I'm liking retirement except that I didn't get my city to adopt a truly accessible sidewalk spec.

Do you have a UK link handy?

(There is zero sense/guidance for the placement of "tactile warning" plates in the US. It's freaking access theater!)

The link below is to the relevant part of the building regs (you want page 17), I'll have a try and dig out the crossing specific one - I really should keep a link to it, it'll be a useful resource whenever I need to point out idiotic pavement widening schemes!

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/441786/BR_PDF_AD_M2_2015.pdf

Thanks so much .... oh! I'm thrilled to see the "the ramp can only be that steep if it's really short!" standard. Mmm, crunchy reading ahead tonight.

Is tactile warning plates the term of art for the warted metal inserts?

I'd been wondering about their placement, since that aren't especially compatable with the main methods of snow removal. Or many sorts of footwear, when it comes to it.

I did find one place where a crosswalk that's got a fairly new yield lights system had its button utterly ice encased. Not sure if that was plow-wake or it needed hand clearing during the Event.

(in a bit of good news, a ramp finally got graded to sensible pitch. No idea how recently; used to be as steep as the stairs it replaced. Like too steep for a bicycle much less a wagon or not X-treme Sport Chair-racer.)

It's "detectable warnings," although warted metal inserts is much more fun to say. And yes, they're a challenge to maintain in snow country. Tell me more about incompatible footwear?

These little bumps -- excuse me, truncated domes -- have a fraught history. Blind pedestrians use the edge of the curb to maintain a safe distance from traffic. Curb ramps ensure rolling pedestrians can move through the landscape, but they erase that crucial landmark. The detectable warnings were a compromise to ensure sidewalks work for all of us. They were required for the full length of the curb ramp in the initial ADA Accessibility Guidelines (ADAAG), and then that requirement was suspended between 1994 and 2001. There were lots of players in the dispute: the National Federation of the Blind opposed the detectable warnings as well as accessible pedestrian signals (the beeping WALK lights and talking WALK call buttons). The American Council of the Blind, as well as the professional organization for folks who teach people non-visual navigation skills, supported them.

The Access Board commissioned an excellent synthesis on the topic, but no longer hosts it. Thanks to the Illinois Dept of Transportation for ensuring the gory details remain discoverable.

Still available at Access-Board.gov is a heartbreaking summary of the "Provisional Rights-of-Way guidance," still not implemented 15 years later.

https://www.access-board.gov/files/prowag/PROW-SUP-SNPRM-2013.pdf

"Detectable Warnings" while true, aren't especially descriptive and distinct. Having a mime at every corner would detectable and objectionable (at least by the mime). Warted metal inserts has the advantage of being available and distinct to many users of sidewalks and even some people that never use crosswalks.

I really wouldn't want to hit one of those truncated cones obliquely with my winter boot heel--despite my boots being the full look of I run the plow, the actual bottom has a grafted 'ladies boot' heel with all the danger that should announce. It's not a tiny surface, but it's not placed correctly to the toe box, my center of gravity or really anything in the universe other than someone's sense that gender should leave a spoor in the snow.

I made detailed observation of the plates when time allowed, since I once twisted my ankle landing on an orchestra stage's outlet (we hadn't had a rehearsal on that stage, and no one had considered that I make Murphy an avowed optimist.)

My Peggy Carter heels wouldn't like them too much more, though I wear those when the pavement is dry and generally I've time to use the surrounding pavement however slanted. No portion of the plate is suitable for women's heels with a rear strike surface of less than a half-dollar (that isn't scientifically proven, but women's shoes are too expensive/non-standardized for study. We'd have to use a questionnaire and seek testimonials of people with heels of various construction.)

I didn't know National Federation of the Blind and American Council of the Blind differed on these issues; I have run into a few beeping and talking crossings that are Poorly Considered, to where if you didn't have some sight you'd be into traffic without knowing it was the oncoming.

During these Covid days, I've been hard pressed to figure out where to await crossing; fortunately I can jog the crosswalk itself and not be a legal hit as long as it's light enough other cars can take the plate number.

I always appreciate education w/r/t shoes. When mine have more than a 1/4 inch heel I fall right over, so it's important to take that into account for universal pedestrian design.

NFB vs ACB is a very sad business The partisans in each group seem happy to maintain the hostility. But given that blindness is such a low-incidence impairment, it seems a waste of effort better spent on advocacy. NFB have established their ideal blind man (reluctantly that's expanded to "people" over the last few years): someone who can travel with a long cane in any weather, in unfamiliar surroundings, is confident in their non-visual strategies, and revels in the old-fashion solidarity style of the Federationist. ACB splintered away from those policies, initially focusing on audio learning, guide dog handlers, and welcoming low vision folks who learned and used enlarged visual strategies. When blind folks leave the NFB, they often describe themselves as a "bad blind person," since they haven't molded to the NFB ideal. Perhaps because ACB supports looser ties within the organization, I've never met a blind person who's left the ACB.

ACB's Paul Edwards reflects on the split

Altogether too many intersections are poorly considered as far as any pedestrian access goes. I'm a dedicated loather of the call button, which supposedly requests the light change sooner and the clearance interval* be longer. Famously in NYV they have no effect whatsoever. Our town has covered all of them to minimize famine transmission. Traffic engineers often assume that it's just fair to give cars an automatically longer cycle, and require pedestrian explicitly request a chance.

Time to cross the street.

I've seen paving surfaces that were very unfriendly to gender stipulated footwear. At times there will be no walking heels sold at the modest portion of the pricing structure; at one point the only heels I owned was a white pair of bridesmaids heels (less than a dime heel strike) and a black pair of sandalstrapped open toe (quarter strike surface).

Now I want the zany adventurers of Maxwell Klinger, Public Works Supervisor.

"Just tell me you did wear the peach shaping briefs before wearing that skirt on the steam grate."

Klinger looks soulfully at his wife.

She looks frantic.

"Don't worry, I sewed up some green lined white satin taps. Kept the line flowing."

She backhands him in the chest. "Max!"

/falls over laughing at MASH fanfic!

Imagine the confusion he causes when he reinterprets a zootsuit in the 1970s and pairs it with a stiletto steel toe heel. And a hat. The hat nearly has a zip code.

Not the doc I was looking for, but there's a tremendous amount of information in this link, covering practically the whole range of external access: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/3695/inclusive-mobility.pdf

I think this is the document I was thinking of, but it's a bit more specific to tactile surfaces than I remember, but excellent on those: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/918353/tactile-paving-surfaces.pdf

And I found this along the way, which is a guide put together by a county council which seems to contain all of the tactile paving stuff, but with some other access stuff such as width of disabled pavement users, mobility ranges and the like. It's possible all of the info here is in the other two links, but this is particularly well put together: http://www.cheshireeasthighways.org/uploads/pedestrianaccessandmobilityacodeofpractice.pdf

Right now I'm laughing at myself, because when I went to save a copy of the docs I'd found, it turned out I already had, including the one I was actually thinking of (they all borrow each other's diagrams which is why I was confused). And that turns out to be 'Roads for all', published by the Scottish government: https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/30228/j256264.pdf

Wow. I am pretty sure I'll be checking out these pdfs and mentioning them to people as my Christmas present to myself.

Though I may start with Roads for All, just so Cheshire East doesn't wonder why so many hits are occurring nowhere near them.

(Our governing bodies can't use each other's diagrams, so they tend to try using words when a picture would be clearer. That try is rather pertinent.)

Describing traffic alignment details with just words is not an easy ask, but give a civil engineer enough pencils and beer and they may produce something useful.

Ha! As the son of a civil engineer, one licensed to design roads at that, I can confirm beer was popular :)

It is a food group, yes?

As long as one drinks with the same hand that pencils, it works out.

It's the surveyors' tippling that proves worrisome. (What do you mean the boundary is where?! One toilet shouldn't be defacto international waters!)

Enjoy. And Crown Copyright is a wonderful thing (the default Open Government License means it's freely reusable, at least where OGL applies).

AHHHHHHH! Hooray for the Scots! That's a great summary.

Has anyone figured out a demo of that one that isn't overly dangerous?

A foot short of a barrier means a traffic cone hardly fits in-between the barrier and the ramp (it's in the way, but at 45° it should be.)

(only the most tangentally related, did they figure out the estate kitchen requirements that led to no overlook of the play areas and thus no multitasking cooking/clean up and safety monitor?)

In theory, av vehicles of the future could solve a lot of problems for me, since I'd no longer be at the mercy of others for transport.

In practice:

American free-market innovation will never solve the problems I need solved. The incentives are wrong (no criminal charges for death or damage caused by negligence in the pipeline; American software firms are bad at the kind of attention to detail that this sort of engineering needs -- move fast and break things!; the cost-benefit incentives are all designed to make it in the companies' interests to pay out civilly for mistakes instead of preventing them in the first place; and the benefits to them are in the large labor cost savings of taxis and delivery, not the tiny pool of disabled people who want independence).
Good public transit systems would solve the problems for most disabled people faster and more efficiently than AVs would.
We need to be reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, not increasing it. You don't need modern AV systems for light rail.

And as you say, the chaos of the real world streets -- combined with the costs of getting it wrong -- make AVs a worse deal for the forseeable future on public roads. And dedicated systems (fucken Elon's fucken Loop) are basically reinventing trains.

Yes, trains were such a wonderful idea they've been invented hundreds of times. How about we make the ones we have work?

Yeah the US rail system sort of makes me want to go and beat my head on a wall. It's huge, it's got the capability to handle a tremendous amount of traffic, but it's almost all diesel. And passenger carriage is a token, which means most lines are slow enough not to attract passengers.

Not that the UK version is much better in terms of diesel, but at least our passenger lines are fast and increasingly electric.

Then you look at the rest of Europe, which began serious electrification about 1900.

"passenger carriage is a token"

Worse than that once out of the Northeast Corridor; in the Midwest, passenger rail is regularly sidetracked so freight can pass. (There are supposed to be some rules, I don't know that they actually restrict much) And that's on commuter/commuter included segments (Chicago-Central Illinois)--bad enough that the University doesn't use rail when shipping multiple professors or staff about-they provide a fleet vehicle.

It was already bad when a German tourist wanted to commemorate the first post WWII visit to Wisconsin by a Head of State of their country only to find after coming to (Milwaukee, iirc) it wasn't possible to take a train to Madison. (I think it was 25 years later? 40?) Because passenger service doesn't serve the Capitol City. At all. The train runs to Columbus, a charming community, but not a hub of intrastate transport.

Wackier things happen going Further West, such as Minnesota from Chicago or Milwaukee (I think it's all the one train; interstate bus is faster)

I was very pleased with European Rail (2000).

The absence of the Madison - Milwaukee link is particularly painful to me. Back at the turn of the century, I served on the Transport 2020 commission, envisioning the transportation options we'd have in that far off time. We came up with lots of details for the rail connection.

We actually got a Congressional earmark of $870 million to rebuild the Madison - Milwaukee rail line and buy rolling stock. Then Scott Walker spits was elected and tried to spend the money on road-building. The Federal Transportation Agency said, "Nope! Thanks, we'll take that money back now."

I don't know if that rail link will ever happen. It's poignant because several fat-cat types in the early 19th century created a ton of railroads in Madison to make it more attractive as the state capitol, which worked.

Yes, I was likewise incensed about that attempt at fiscal theft.

It should be possible to get between St. Paul/Mpls and Madison, and between Madison and Chicago at the very least, but currently, that's cars, buses or planes. And the interstate buses aren't all that when it comes to mobility challenged passengers.

I've seen two of Madison's train depots, one as a U-Haul point of rental and the other a strip mall. Have any others survived to the modern day?

Nope.

Although the city has worked hard to maintain access to the main downtown station -- the U-Haul is actually next door. There's some train-cars-gussied up as boutiques, but I'm sure they're out of business now. The waiting hall was a succession of great restaurants and last I saw was a bicycle shop.

On the two occasions I've taken a passenger train, I've travelled 40 miles to Columbus, Wisconsin to hop on the Empire Builder as it heads to Chicago. Amtrak also sells a bus ticket to go from Madison (right by the dorms) to Union Station.

Just in case you need to read more of me ranting, my experience riding from Madison to Chicago in an over-the-road bus

Edited (more self promotion is always good) 2020-12-24 22:35 (UTC)

The U-Haul might have an old postal depot instead then.

Is the Empire Builder the only Milwaukee to Chicago? I know it's the only St. Paul-Chicago; for the non-Continental Americans, the Empire Builder runs all the way West from the Windy City, in however many days. Back in the 20th century, its cars were the first modern stock I met.

I've completely misremembered the line names.

Empire Builder goes west — Chicago to Milwaukee then Mpls and eventually Portland, OR

The Hiawatha hugged the lake between Chicago and Milwaukee then zoomed west to Mpls — but it was discontinued back in 1971. Amtrak has the nerve to repurpose the name for bus service

My trips east to visit relatives were on the Lake Shore Limited.

Every rail car I've ridden was built before 1980.

I wonder what we'll be using in 60 years which will make our current internet system look totally out-of-date?

Wow, that's a long time ago the Hiawatha ceased being a line. Only to return as a bus.

But yeah, Chicago to Portland, OR really isn't intended to deliver people traveling for 'the duration'--not that any part of Amtrak is really meant for that these days. Or those days, considering.

I suppose the cars I've been on 'lately' are more recent than 1980, since they have had tank toilets more like in Italy (though with toilet paper provided). But other than the Rail Builder in its double decker glory, I'd been on cars that Steve and Bucky might have recognized from a Macy's display. Just super beat up and bigger.

passenger rail is regularly sidetracked so freight can pass

*headdesk*

Passenger rail isn't actually 'profitable', because airlines and private vehicles were subsidized to make that so. And much as bars will accept fines up to a certain amount if under drinking age women pull in paying legal men, the freight getting through is worth more.

The sidetracking has rules, but, recall Americans had to pass laws to make airlines let people back into the terminal rather than be without food, water and bathroom privileges for hours.

This is also on top of rail shipping things in overly tippy carriages and through residential crossings. (I've heard there's been welding cars together and possibly even re-activating cars that were rusting for years. It's unlikely that everyone hooking and unhooking cars knows which commodities cannot be within so many linear feet of another commodity because Science!--the railroaders that knew that are in the Celestial Railyard.)

Elon's Loop in particular made me contemplate,

Can you find me maps of where the trolleys used to run, where the people now work and how wide the roads we've got are?

Clearly, we don't want to do as foot scrapings Robert Moses did. (and yet that seems built in to Elon's Loop)

I'm wondering how far 2020 has additionally pushed back I-94 getting a proper public option (because that interstate is DWI low hanging rail needed fruit).

What problem are AVs solving?

They can deliver to people who are housebound due to chronic illness; disability; parenting responsibilities; caring responsibilities and unlike human delivery staff

- they cannot give someone COVID or other contagious diseases [even after COVID, there will still be immunocompromised people, people on meds that suppress immune system, and people who the common garden variety cold = 4 months stuck in bed]

- they are not wearing perfume/deodorant that is a migraine trigger

- they are unlikely to do something that triggers someone's PTSD

- they will not make sexist, racist, ableist, fatphobic or homophobic remarks

- they will not harrass someone after the delivery for a date [this has been a problem with some eg Uber Eats drivers]

- they will never commit sexual assault

As a wheelchair user with Blind friends I 100% agree that AVs need to be made compatible with eg not blocking kerb cuts and getting out of the way of Blind people.

But I do see many upsides for them.

Human delivery drivers often wear so much perfume/spray on deodorant that it gives me migraines;

human delivery drivers have gotten angry that I could not walk out to their car, but needed the food to come to my front door;

human delivery drivers have gotten angry about how long it takes me to open my front door;

human delivery drivers have delivered to my next door neighbours

Hmmm, thanks for making me think again!

Your issues with human delivery drivers are much the same I've had dispatching installers (not the perfume or deodorant, but I think I did have someone report faint worthy BO) and apparently occur with TSA.

I have heard how paratransit is perversely re-numerated to encourage not-on time service.

I wonder which is more likely, AV not making a 'nuisance' AND being profitable or Properly vetting human drivers and not sweating them. (Ride share and delivery are converging and I'm not really up on either. I keep a finger or two in on labor history grounds.) Long haul trucking has examples of the independent contractor model (cf. gig worker) making for very dangerous roads.

Yeah, with the rise in UberEats due to people staying home because COVID

Four delivery riders die on Sydney roads in three months in massive crisis for gig economy
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-23/uber-eats-vows-to-improve-safety-cyclist-killed-in-inner-sydney/12913840

It seems to be a combination of

a) speeding to try and get as many jobs per hour as possible in order to make more money

b) cyclists cycling tired

c) inexperienced cyclists who have lost their jobs as eg waitstaff and are trying to make a living as food delivery cyclists

I don't live in a cycle delivery typical zone, though I think there has been some trike uptick in delivery, much as the tamale man hasn't been out as much.

Here Grubhub drivers might actually make less than their gas if they aren't careful, and the skin off the nose is the restaurant re:misdelivered food. (I don't know of any case that happened--it's more that drivers expect to be earning $x and then find they have to work way more hours to get to $x, which means they're maybe at minimum wage and wearing out their car. And the service scalping off the tips. Not sure how the taxes work for delivery, for waitstaff that would put them in the hole since they'd have to prove they didn't receive tips at the rate expected by the IRS.)

The usual dangers here are truckers driving under slept and now increasingly underfed. There's along with that drivers in trucks they don't know well and on routes they haven't been on before. Our streets aren't as uniformly marked as one might think (or are marked to be read in full daylight without the 'distraction' of speed or lane position.)

Our house is at the intersection of three streets and a very busy bike path -- it's a spaghetti street subdivision designed between the World Wars. My street has four blocks: one end is a circle numbered in the teens, next the 4100 block, then the 4000 block, then my 800 block.

Which is all to say: the newly-hired FedEx, UPS, and Amazon Prime trucks drive around here like yellow jackets at a picnic. ||; vroom, screech, buzz, screech, slam doors :||

not the perfume or deodorant, but I think I did have someone report faint worthy BO

I would always, always, ALWAYS prefer the BO.

BO can be gross, but it doesn't give me migraines that can last one to seven days...

Yeah, dispatch rarely hears about migraine triggers. Excessive property damage is more standard complaint, but the Fear wasn't negligible. And I never got sufficient buy in about the Fear issues.

May you avoid migraines.

but the Fear wasn't negligible. And I never got sufficient buy in about the Fear issues

I'm assuming the Fear was legitimate -

eg the driver made homophobic/racist/misogynist/transphobic remarks; the driver sexually harassed the client; the driver deliberately intimidated the client

and not illegitimate - eg the client objected to Black/Latinx drivers and just generally claimed to feel unsafe around People of Colour?

Installers sexually harassing people in their own apartments.

The system didn't make it easy for women to be installers and made it very attractive to men that wanted to make their own rules.

Customers could be bad too, and I could deal with some of those issues within the rules.

What problem are autonomous vehicles solving?

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Labor costs and also

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