What problem are autonomous vehicles solving?

[jesse_the_k]

The Access Board has this to say about itself:

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in inclusive design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards.

Starting in March of next year, they’ll be holding ZOOM hearings re: autonomous vehicles and disabled people.

If you’d like to chime in with your thoughts, sign up here:

https://www.access-board.gov/av/

My thoughts:

AV pizza robots have already blocked curb ramps.

AV navigation depends on a deep understanding of the typical streetscape. But "typical" is a notion, not a reality. Every streetscape has atypical elements. For 50 years, I’ve observed the corner of Park and University Avenue. When UW-Madison is in session, the typical behavior is chaotic.

Color me doubtful and dubious. What problem are AVs solving?

Comments

[jadelennox]

In theory, av vehicles of the future could solve a lot of problems for me, since I'd no longer be at the mercy of others for transport.

In practice:

• American free-market innovation will never solve the problems I need solved. The incentives are wrong (no criminal charges for death or damage caused by negligence in the pipeline; American software firms are bad at the kind of attention to detail that this sort of engineering needs -- move fast and break things!; the cost-benefit incentives are all designed to make it in the companies' interests to pay out civilly for mistakes instead of preventing them in the first place; and the benefits to them are in the large labor cost savings of taxis and delivery, not the tiny pool of disabled people who want independence).
• Good public transit systems would solve the problems for most disabled people faster and more efficiently than AVs would.
• We need to be reducing our dependence on fossil fuels, not increasing it. You don't need modern AV systems for light rail.

And as you say, the chaos of the real world streets -- combined with the costs of getting it wrong -- make AVs a worse deal for the forseeable future on public roads. And dedicated systems (fucken Elon's fucken Loop) are basically reinventing trains.

[jesse_the_k]

Yes, trains were such a wonderful idea they've been invented hundreds of times. How about we make the ones we have work?

[davidgillon]

Yeah the US rail system sort of makes me want to go and beat my head on a wall. It's huge, it's got the capability to handle a tremendous amount of traffic, but it's almost all diesel. And passenger carriage is a token, which means most lines are slow enough not to attract passengers.

Not that the UK version is much better in terms of diesel, but at least our passenger lines are fast and increasingly electric.

Then you look at the rest of Europe, which began serious electrification about 1900.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

"passenger carriage is a token"

Worse than that once out of the Northeast Corridor; in the Midwest, passenger rail is regularly sidetracked so freight can pass. (There are supposed to be some rules, I don't know that they actually restrict much) And that's on commuter/commuter included segments (Chicago-Central Illinois)--bad enough that the University doesn't use rail when shipping multiple professors or staff about-they provide a fleet vehicle.

It was already bad when a German tourist wanted to commemorate the first post WWII visit to Wisconsin by a Head of State of their country only to find after coming to (Milwaukee, iirc) it wasn't possible to take a train to Madison. (I think it was 25 years later? 40?) Because passenger service doesn't serve the Capitol City. At all. The train runs to Columbus, a charming community, but not a hub of intrastate transport.

Wackier things happen going Further West, such as Minnesota from Chicago or Milwaukee (I think it's all the one train; interstate bus is faster)

I was very pleased with European Rail (2000).

[jesse_the_k]

The absence of the Madison - Milwaukee link is particularly painful to me. Back at the turn of the century, I served on the Transport 2020 commission, envisioning the transportation options we'd have in that far off time. We came up with lots of details for the rail connection.

We actually got a Congressional earmark of $870 million to rebuild the Madison - Milwaukee rail line and buy rolling stock. Then Scott Walker spits was elected and tried to spend the money on road-building. The Federal Transportation Agency said, "Nope! Thanks, we'll take that money back now."

I don't know if that rail link will ever happen. It's poignant because several fat-cat types in the early 19th century created a ton of railroads in Madison to make it more attractive as the state capitol, which worked.

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Yes, I was likewise incensed about that attempt at fiscal theft.

It should be possible to get between St. Paul/Mpls and Madison, and between Madison and Chicago at the very least, but currently, that's cars, buses or planes. And the interstate buses aren't all that when it comes to mobility challenged passengers.

I've seen two of Madison's train depots, one as a U-Haul point of rental and the other a strip mall. Have any others survived to the modern day?

[jesse_the_k]

Nope.

Although the city has worked hard to maintain access to the main downtown station -- the U-Haul is actually next door. There's some train-cars-gussied up as boutiques, but I'm sure they're out of business now. The waiting hall was a succession of great restaurants and last I saw was a bicycle shop.

On the two occasions I've taken a passenger train, I've travelled 40 miles to Columbus, Wisconsin to hop on the Empire Builder as it heads to Chicago. Amtrak also sells a bus ticket to go from Madison (right by the dorms) to Union Station.

Just in case you need to read more of me ranting, my experience riding from Madison to Chicago in an over-the-road bus

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

The U-Haul might have an old postal depot instead then.

Is the Empire Builder the only Milwaukee to Chicago? I know it's the only St. Paul-Chicago; for the non-Continental Americans, the Empire Builder runs all the way West from the Windy City, in however many days. Back in the 20th century, its cars were the first modern stock I met.

[jesse_the_k]

I've completely misremembered the line names.

Empire Builder goes west — Chicago to Milwaukee then Mpls and eventually Portland, OR

The Hiawatha hugged the lake between Chicago and Milwaukee then zoomed west to Mpls — but it was discontinued back in 1971. Amtrak has the nerve to repurpose the name for bus service

My trips east to visit relatives were on the Lake Shore Limited.

Every rail car I've ridden was built before 1980.

I wonder what we'll be using in 60 years which will make our current internet system look totally out-of-date?

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Wow, that's a long time ago the Hiawatha ceased being a line. Only to return as a bus.

But yeah, Chicago to Portland, OR really isn't intended to deliver people traveling for 'the duration'--not that any part of Amtrak is really meant for that these days. Or those days, considering.

I suppose the cars I've been on 'lately' are more recent than 1980, since they have had tank toilets more like in Italy (though with toilet paper provided). But other than the Rail Builder in its double decker glory, I'd been on cars that Steve and Bucky might have recognized from a Macy's display. Just super beat up and bigger.

[davidgillon]

passenger rail is regularly sidetracked so freight can pass

*headdesk*

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Passenger rail isn't actually 'profitable', because airlines and private vehicles were subsidized to make that so. And much as bars will accept fines up to a certain amount if under drinking age women pull in paying legal men, the freight getting through is worth more.

The sidetracking has rules, but, recall Americans had to pass laws to make airlines let people back into the terminal rather than be without food, water and bathroom privileges for hours.

This is also on top of rail shipping things in overly tippy carriages and through residential crossings. (I've heard there's been welding cars together and possibly even re-activating cars that were rusting for years. It's unlikely that everyone hooking and unhooking cars knows which commodities cannot be within so many linear feet of another commodity because Science!--the railroaders that knew that are in the Celestial Railyard.)

[peoriapeoriawhereart]

Elon's Loop in particular made me contemplate,

Can you find me maps of where the trolleys used to run, where the people now work and how wide the roads we've got are?

Clearly, we don't want to do as foot scrapings Robert Moses did. (and yet that seems built in to Elon's Loop)

I'm wondering how far 2020 has additionally pushed back I-94 getting a proper public option (because that interstate is DWI low hanging rail needed fruit).